Homepage - RF Cafe
Webmaster: Kirt Blattenberger | KB3UON | Sitemap | ©1996-2014     Visit RF Cafe on
      Menu below is just a small sample of what is here!          Visit RF Cafe on Facebook Visit RF Cafe on Twitter Visit RF Cafe on LinkedIn
Custom Search
More than 10,000 searchable pages indexed.
•−•  ••−•    −•−•  •−  ••−•  •
RF Cafe Morse Code >Hear It<

phase noise doubler - RF Cafe Forums

Because of the high maintenance needed to monitor and filter spammers from the RF Cafe Forums, I decided that it would be best to just archive the pages to make all the good information posted in the past available for review. It is unfortunate that the scumbags of the world ruin an otherwise useful venue for people wanting to exchanged useful ideas and views. It seems that the more formal social media like Facebook pretty much dominate this kind of venue anymore anyway, so if you would like to post something on RF Cafe's Facebook page, please do.

Below are all of the forum threads, including all the responses to the original posts.

Post subject: phase noise Posted: Wed Apr 05, 2006 11:52 am


Joined: Wed Apr 05, 2006 11:42 am
Posts: 1
Who can explain why phase noise after doubler increase by 20log2=6dB
and not 10log2=3dB ?


Post subject: Phase noisePosted: Wed Apr 05, 2006 7:18 pm


Joined: Wed Feb 22, 2006 3:51 pm
Posts: 104

After a doubler, there are intermodulation products added, as well as harmonic products. See Steven Maas' book Nonlinear Microwave & RF Circuits for more details.

Good Luck,


Post subject: Posted: Thu Apr 06, 2006 10:02 am

Site Admin

Joined: Mon Jun 27, 2005 2:02 pm
Posts: 373
Location: Germany
Hello Fred,

Without reading the book so far, intermodulations and harmonics are considered as signals and not noise, so how can they increase the phase noise?

Best regards,

- IR


Post subject: Phase NoisePosted: Thu Apr 06, 2006 4:55 pm


Joined: Wed Feb 22, 2006 3:51 pm
Posts: 104
Sorry, yz, I misread your question, and answered a similar but not identical question about why performance is often worse than 20 log n.

The quick answer to yz's question is that phase noise comes from undesired phase modulation of the carrier by noise. The amplitude of the sidebands is determined by the modulation index (approximately a linear dependence at low modulation indexes). The modulation index doubles when the frequency is doubled. Since power is voltage squared, the 10 log for dB becomes 20 log : log v squared = 2 log v.

Signals and noise are ultimately indistinguishable. If you could distinguish them in any way, noise could be removed from a corrupted signal - an outcome we'd all stand up and cheer for! Considering phase noise as resulting from incidental phase modulation by noise (usually device noise) is a standard approach.

Sometimes principles are easier to see when discussed in sine wave terms, which is why the distinction sometimes gets made.

In this case (and again, my apologies for answering the wrong question), sometimes you see worse-than-20 log n performance due to the intermodulation products.


Posted  11/12/2012
A Disruptive Web Presence

Custom Search
Over 10,000 pages indexed! (none duped or pirated)

Read About RF Cafe
Webmaster: Kirt Blattenberger

RF Cafe Software

RF Cascade Workbook
RF Cascade Workbook is a very extensive system cascaded component Excel workbook that includes the standard Gain, NF, IP2, IP3, Psat calculations, input & output VSWR, noise BW, min/max tolerance, DC power cauculations, graphing of all RF parameters, and has a graphical block diagram tool. An extensive User's Guide is also included. - Only $35.
RF system analysis including
frequency conversion & filters

RF & EE Symbols Word
RF Stencils for Visio

Product & Service Directory
Personally Selected Manufacturers
RF Cafe T-Shirts & Mugs

RF Cafe Software

Calculator Workbook
RF Workbench
Smith Chart™ for Visio
Smith Chart™ for Excel
Your RF Cafe Progenitor & Webmaster
Click here to read about RF CafeKirt Blattenberger... single-handedly redefining what an
                                 engineering website should be.

View the YouTube RF Cafe Intro Video Carpe Diem! (Seize the Day!)

5CCG (5th MOB): My USAF radar shop

Airplanes and Rockets: My personal hobby website

Equine Kingdom: My daughter Sally's horse riding website