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need help to coaxial balun simulation - RF Cafe Forums
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fxhfzy
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Post subject: need help to coaxial balun simulation
Posted: Sat Jun 27, 2009 1:39 am
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Joined: Fri Jun 26, 2009
6:22 am Posts: 13 |
I have simulated a coaxial balun which will transform
50ohm unbalanced impedance to 25ohm balanced impedance
as the following circuit:
The following picture is the simulation result,
I get 100ohm impedance of port2 and port3.
How can I get the correct result?
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yendori |
Post subject: Re: need help to coaxial balun simulation
Posted: Wed Jul 01, 2009 11:05 am
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Joined: Thu Sep 25, 2003
1:19 am Posts: 50 Location: texarcana
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Quote:
I have simulated a coaxial balun which will
transform 50ohm unbalanced impedance to 25ohm
balanced impedance as the following circuit
: Hi, The circuit you show is
not correct. It shows a 50ohm un-balanced input
with two 50ohm un-balanced outputs. Sometimes
thinking in DC helps. A 50ohm source wants to see
a 50ohm load. In this case, it is 2 50ohm resistors
in parallel, which is 25ohms. (not 50) You
single ended outputs need to be 100ohms. 100ohms
in parallel = 50ohms = good! or Put
a 50ohms between port 2 and 3, this is balanced.
Balanced 50ohm resistors, Instead of doubling the
resistor value you are doubling the voltage, because
it's 180 out of phase. So it = 50ohms = good!
or use a 2:1 transformer at the
input to convert 50 to 25 ohms before the circuit.
This is typical practice for power splitters.
I don't know your application so I'm not sure
how you want to proceed. Good luck.
Rod
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fxhfzy |
Post subject: Re: need help to coaxial balun simulation
Posted: Sat Jul 04, 2009 1:14 am
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Joined: Fri Jun 26, 2009
6:22 am Posts: 13 |
Thank you! I am designing a 200W, IMD3< -40dBc
amplifier for 30-88MHz application. I am going to
using MRF6VP2600HR6(freescale) which is designed
for push-pull operation. I want to have a simulation
result of the test circuit. Then I find problems
with this simple balanced impedance simulation.
How can I simulate a balun and get a right balanced
impedance in ADS?
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yendori |
Post subject: Re: need help to coaxial balun simulation
Posted: Sat Jul 04, 2009 12:03 pm
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Joined: Thu Sep 25, 2003
1:19 am Posts: 50 Location: texarcana
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Hi, I think the Freescale datasheet should
give some direction. Have you a considered using
a balanced amplifier, since IM3 seems to be most
critical? Maybe IR or nubbage could help
out, there brains are bigger than mine. Rod
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nubbage |
Post subject: Re: need help to coaxial balun simulation
Posted: Mon Jul 06, 2009 3:26 am
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General |
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Joined: Fri Feb 17, 2006
12:07 pm Posts: 218 Location: London UK
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Thanks for the plug, Rod, but I have no experience
of ADS and never designed a solid state amplifier.
But IR is definitely a guru in this area, and we
do have a few others too.
_________________ At bottom, life is all
about Sucking in and blowing out.
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IR |
Post subject: Re: need help to coaxial balun simulation
Posted: Mon Jul 06, 2009 3:35 pm
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Joined: Mon Jun 27, 2005
2:02 pm Posts: 373 Location: Germany
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Hello, The preferred topology in this case
is Balanced Amplifier and mainly for the reason
that the isolation you would achieve with Push-Pull
is very low (6dB in theory, and I am afraid that
in reality not much better). The device which you
are using has a very high gain and using Push-Pull
configuration can lead to instability problems and
with such a high amount of output power this can
lead to a nightmare!! I am not sure if it
is possible to use this specific device in Balanced
Amplifier topology because of impedance matching
issues. The device's impedances mentioned are balanced
from Gate to Gate and from Drain to Drain and
are 4 times
higher compared to single- ended device for the
same output power. The impedances given are
already small due to the high output power capability.
I think that it is wise to find another device with
higher output impedance if possible. The
impedances mentioned are not in your BW of operation,
you can either ask the manufaturer for this data
or use the device's model provided - the model should
also cover your BW of operation. The 200W
output power you mentioned, is it your average power
or peak power?
_________________ Best regards, -
IR
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fxhfzy |
Post subject: Re: need help to coaxial balun simulation
Posted: Wed Jul 08, 2009 4:32 am
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Joined: Fri Jun 26, 2009
6:22 am Posts: 13 |
Thank you for your suggestion! 200W output power
is my average power. I am really new to amp design,
and I think I have to change my plan.right now I
have the following questions: 1."If the differential
RF excitation is available,the impedence presented
by the push-pull pair at both input and output is
a factor of 2 higher than that which would be presented
by one single-ended device."This is what I have
read in the test book,why did you say it is 4 times?
2.For MRF6VP2600 is not suitable, I am thinking
about MRF6V2300N(freescale), is it suitable for
a balanced amp topology?
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IR |
Post subject: Re: Balanced Amplifier topology
Posted: Wed Jul 08, 2009 2:36 pm
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Joined: Mon Jun 27, 2005
2:02 pm Posts: 373 Location: Germany
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1. I got this information from an application note.
I would rely more on your text book, also intuitively
2 times higher for Push-Pull makes more sense.
2. The transistor which you choose is good
for Balanced Amplifier topology. In the data sheet,
the impedances are also mentioned for your BW -
at 27MHz. If you need more help, let us know!
_________________ Best regards, -
IR
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fxhfzy |
Post subject: Re: need help to coaxial balun simulation
Posted: Sun Jul 12, 2009 11:37 pm
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Joined: Fri Jun 26, 2009
6:22 am Posts: 13 |
Hi,IR,I got three more questions: 1. It is not
easy to find a 30-88MHz hybrid coupler with average
power more than 200W, the only one met the conditions
is innovative's product, but it has a 0.9dB of amplitude
imbalance and 5 degree of phase imbalance. Is this
one suitable for my design? 2. I have seen Ina's
question about the relationship of IMD3 vs tone
spacing. My amp will be test under 1.5MHz tone spacing.
In your opinion, can I get IMD3 as good as the figure
8 of datasheet when tone spacing changes from 100kHz
to 1.5MHz?And please give me some advise on how
to avoid Ina's problem. 3. Which bias should
I choose to get my IMD3<-40dBc? 1125mA or 1350mA?
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IR |
Post subject: Re: need help to coaxial balun simulation
Posted: Mon Jul 13, 2009 8:41 am
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Joined: Mon Jun 27, 2005
2:02 pm Posts: 373 Location: Germany
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1. Indeed, such a hybrid coupler is not easy to
find. What you could do in order to compensate for
the phase and amplitude imbalance it to measure
the hybrid coupler beforehand and to compensate
on the imbalance on each channel by tuning the lumped
components values. 2. It is hard to answer on
this question. The best way to get an insight on
the operation of the circuit under various tone
spacings is by simulation. If you have ADS available,
you can inject 2 signals with different spacing
and see how it works. The only variable which you
can control is the bias - In case the IMD3 is getting
worse you can adjust the bias to improve it. If
this does not work - you should consider a use of
linearization scheme. 3. Definitely Idq=1350mA
would cause lower distortions. You can see that
by the flat gain along the entire range of the output
power. Any curved shape of output power (Like seen
for the lower bias levels) is simply a distortion.
_________________ Best regards, -
IR
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fxhfzy |
Post subject: Re: need help to coaxial balun simulation
Posted: Wed Jul 15, 2009 9:34 am
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Joined: Fri Jun 26, 2009
6:22 am Posts: 13 |
Hi,IR!I have new problems with with choosing Zsource.I
could choose Zload with the loadpull simulation
in ADS,but when I do the sourcepull simulation,
there seems to be many points having nearly the
same power and eff,how do you usually choose Zsource?
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IR |
Post subject: Re: Zsource
Posted: Wed Jul 15, 2009 1:57 pm
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Joined: Mon Jun 27, 2005
2:02 pm Posts: 373 Location: Germany
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Zsource is not critical in PA design. It is critical
for LNA design, for which you do Source Pull.
Therefore if the impedance points which
you get provide similar output power and efficiency,
you can choose the point which is easier to match,
i.e. with the higher impedacne. Pay more attention
to the load rather than to the source.
_________________ Best regards, -
IR
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fxhfzy |
Post subject: Re: need help to coaxial balun simulation
Posted: Thu Nov 19, 2009 4:34 am
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Joined: Fri Jun 26, 2009
6:22 am Posts: 13 |
Hello,IR!I have a new problem right now. Since
we have already requested samples of MRF6VP2600,I
went on with my project using this transistor with
the pushpull operation.To avoid the stability problem,we
change the freqency range to 57-63MHz. I finished
the circuit building, found a stable bias at Id=2.3A,Gain=24dB(f=60MHz)
and measured the VSWR with network analyzer(Pin=-20dBm),vswr1=1.4,vswr2=7.2
@ f=60MHz. Then I began to increase the input
power(f=60MHz),I increased Pin 2dBm everytime.Gain
remained 24dB until Pout=37dBm,it droped to 4dB
and couldn't recover. I have taken the transistor
down,it seems to be secondary breakdown. Could
you tell me why the transistor breakdown and what
shall I do next? The schematic circuit is as
follows:
The amp picture is as follows:
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IR |
Post subject: Re: need help to coaxial balun simulation
Posted: Fri Nov 20, 2009 2:57 pm
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Joined: Mon Jun 27, 2005
2:02 pm Posts: 373 Location: Germany
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Hello, There can be several causes: 1.It
could be that the device was already internally
damaged. 2. From your description it looks like
the output VSWR was already bad in low power and
probably became worse when you increased the unput
power. According to the data sheet the transistor
can withstand a VSWR of 10:1 (Γ=9/11). 3. What
measures did you use to evacuate the heat from the
transistor (e.g. Heat-sink with fins and fan)?
_________________ Best regards, -
IR
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fxhfzy |
Post subject: Re: need help to coaxial balun simulation
Posted: Sat Nov 21, 2009 3:22 am
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Joined: Fri Jun 26, 2009
6:22 am Posts: 13 |
Thank you! I use a heatsink with fins(250*200*80mm)
to evacuate the heat,but I didn't add a fan.I think
I will add a fan to the heatsink in my next test.
I have another question which has confused me for
a long time: The output vswr is turely bad,but
it seems when you apply a power match instead of
a conjugate match to the output of the transistor,you
will get a high output and bad vswr.(e.g. a lot
of polyfet transistors)If this transistor can handle
a vswr of 10:1 (Γ=9/11) when output power is 600W,how
could the output power get through when the reflect
coefficient is such a large number?
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IR |
Post subject: Re: need help to coaxial balun simulation
Posted: Sun Nov 29, 2009 4:36 pm
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Joined: Mon Jun 27, 2005
2:02 pm Posts: 373 Location: Germany
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Conjugate match by principle is narrow-band almost
as a resonant frequency compared to power match
you described which is broad-band. The VSWR
handling of the device (10:1) means that the device
is able to handle most of the reflected power from
the load without being damaged. The power transmitted
to the load will of course be small under these
conditions (Pt=Pi-Pr). VSWR of 10:1 means
that the return loss is around -1.75dB. that
means that almost the entire power is being reflected
back to the transistor and a small portion is being
transmitted to the load.
_________________ Best regards, -
IR
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fxhfzy |
Post subject: Re: need help to coaxial balun simulation
Posted: Sun Jul 04, 2010 11:44 pm
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Joined: Fri Jun 26, 2009
6:22 am Posts: 13 |
Hello,everyone! I get a new problem. I have built
a balanced amplifer for 57.4-63.6MHz application
using the LDMOS MRF6V4300 of freescale. Last
week I done the first test, I used the Spectrum
analyzer to measure the output with sereval attenuators
(totally 57dBm) after the amp, when output power
increase to about 100W, the reading of the Spectrum
analyzer become instable, it was changing between
-6.6dBm and -6.4dBm, which meant output power was
changing between 50.4dBm and 50.6dBm. The efficiency
at this output is about 26%, I want to kown that,
was the reading changing a serious problem or not?
If it was, what should I do to solve this problem?
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IR |
Post subject: Re: need help to coaxial balun simulation
Posted: Mon Jul 05, 2010 3:02 am
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Joined: Mon Jun 27, 2005
2:02 pm Posts: 373 Location: Germany
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You shoule never use spectrum Analyzer to measure
the output power. Spectrum analyzer output reading
is not accurate as power meter and can have up to
+/-0.5dB tolerance. Therefore, use power
meter and measure exactly the attenuation of the
attenuators and cables, adapters etc which you place
between the PA output to the power meter.
_________________ Best regards, -
IR
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fxhfzy |
Post subject: Re: need help to coaxial balun simulation
Posted: Thu Jul 22, 2010 4:00 am
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Joined: Fri Jun 26, 2009
6:22 am Posts: 13 |
Hello!I get a big problem in improveing the eff
of the amp. I've made my amp output 150W, the
effs versus outputs are as follows: Pout(dBm)
eff(actual) eff(simulation) 44.5 13.9% 13.9%
45.5 15.9% 16.3% 46.6 18.5% 18.9% 47.6 20.9%
21.8% 48.7 23.3% 25% 49.6 26.3% 28.2% 50.6
29.6% 31.6% 51.6 33.1% 35.7% The transistor
I used was MRF6V4300 of freescale, the circuit was
built in balance configuration. The load impedence
is: Rload=3.6+j*0.4 (f=60MHz),I got this impedence
by ADS simulation. And I have measured the impedence
of the output match network at harmonic frequencies:
Rload=3.6+j*0.4 f=60MHz Rload=1+j*3.3 f=120MHz
Rload=0.3+j*6.1 f=180MHz Rload=0.2+j*15.5 f=240MHz
Since the difference between eff(actual) and eff(simulation)
became larger when the Pout increased, I thought
there might be something wrong with my circuit.
Right now I am short of large capasitors, so I have
used small capacitors in parallel(56pF*4) to subsitute
for large capacitor in my output match network.Was
this a big problem? This is also another problem
in the two tone signals measurement for IMD3 test,
the IMD3 signals became unstable when the Pout increased
to 100W, it kept jumping from -43dBc to -50dBc.
Last time the output unstable was because of
the high temperature, I sliped off some silica gel
and it got normal, what's the reason for this IMD3
jumping?
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IR |
Post subject: Re: need help to coaxial balun simulation
Posted: Thu Jul 22, 2010 9:44 am
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Joined: Mon Jun 27, 2005
2:02 pm Posts: 373 Location: Germany
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Hello,
Quote:
I get a big problem in improveing the eff of
the amp. I've made my amp output 150W, the
effs versus outputs are as follows: Pout(dBm)
eff(actual) eff(simulation) 44.5 13.9% 13.9%
45.5 15.9% 16.3% 46.6 18.5% 18.9% 47.6
20.9% 21.8% 48.7 23.3% 25% 49.6 26.3%
28.2% 50.6 29.6% 31.6% 51.6 33.1% 35.7%
The transistor I used was MRF6V4300 of freescale,
the circuit was built in balance configuration.
Actually, I do not think that you have a
problem with the efficiency, because according to
the data sheet it is stated that the efficiency
for 300W is 60%, you are working in half of this
power, therefore, the efficiency which you get is
OK. Take into consideration, that you work
in Balanced configuration and you have some losses
on the output coupler and transmission lines between
the output coupler and the transistors' outputs.
Quote:
This is also another problem in the two tone
signals measurement for IMD3 test, the IMD3
signals became unstable when the Pout increased
to 100W, it kept jumping from -43dBc to -50dBc.
Last time the output unstable was because
of the high temperature, I sliped off some silica
gel and it got normal, what's the reason for
this IMD3 jumping?
Excessive heat can be a cause for this problem.
Slipping some silica under the transistor is not
an adequate solution. You should be very careful
by implementing a solution for heat evacuation:
a. Under the transistor you have to apply very
thin thin layer of silica, in such way that you
are able to see clearly the transistor metal via
the silica. b. The heat sink has to be cooled
by using 2 fans; i.e. one fan takes cool air towards
the heat-sink and the other fan which rotates in
the opposite direction evacuates the hot ait from
the heat-sink towards out. Read the following
application note for more information:
https://sound.westhost.com/heatsinks.htm
In addition, try to see if the supply lines
are clear from noise, and if there is no RF signal
coupled back to the supply lines.
_________________ Best regards, -
IR
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fxhfzy |
Post subject: Re: need help to coaxial balun simulation
Posted: Thu Nov 04, 2010 12:15 am
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Joined: Fri Jun 26, 2009
6:22 am Posts: 13 |
Hello! I find out a problem when building the balance
amp (200W, 57.4-63.6MHz, using LDMOS MRF4300 of
Freescale). The output section of the balance amp
is shown in fig. 1.
The hybrid has been well tuned with the amplitude
unbalance less than 0.1dB and the phase unbalance
less than 1°.I use the L-C topology for the output
match network. My problem is as follows: When
I built the output match network with the same capacitors
and nearly the same wire-wound inductors, I got
ZL1= 3.6-j*0.1 which is the right Zload from load-pull
simulation by ADS, but meanwhile I got ZL2=3.2-j*0.2.
When I tuned the wire-wound inductors to get ZL1
and ZL2 closer, the amplitude unbalance and the
phase unbalance became larger. Finally, when I got
ZL2=3.5-j*0.2, The s-parameters of the whole section
change to S21=-9.8, S31=-9.0, phase(S21)=-87, phase(31)=-170.
The amplitude unbalance is 0.8dB and the phase unbalance
is 7°. The same problem also happens in the input
section which is shown in Fig.2, the situation is
even worse. If I want to make Zs1 and Zs2 closer,
the amplitude unbalance and the phase unbalance
of the whole section became as large as 2dB and
14°
What should I do, to make sure two impedances
closer or make the amplitude unbalance and the phase
unbalance of the whole section as small as possible?
The eff of the PA is still poor (37% at 200W output,
the simulation result is 42% at the same output).
In my former experiments, I tuned two impedances
closer to make sure the gain of two amp is closer,
So I think much power may be consumed on R2 due
to the large unbalance. Another question:
How many watts will be consume on R2 if the output
power is 200W from your estimation?
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Posted 11/12/2012
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