•−•  ••−•    −•−•  •−  ••−•  •
RF Cafe Morse Code >Hear It<

Job Board

About RF Cafe™


PLL Design - RF Cafe Forums

Because of the high maintenance needed to monitor and filter spammers from the RF Cafe Forums, I decided that it would be best to just archive the pages to make all the good information posted in the past available for review. It is unfortunate that the scumbags of the world ruin an otherwise useful venue for people wanting to exchanged useful ideas and views. It seems that the more formal social media like Facebook pretty much dominate this kind of venue anymore anyway, so if you would like to post something on RF Cafe's Facebook page, please do.

Below are all of the forum threads, including all the responses to the original posts.

Post subject: PLL Design Posted: Sun Feb 24, 2008 12:37 am


Joined: Tue Feb 27, 2007 6:16 am
Posts: 46

I am attempting to design a POCSAG paging transmitter.

To Ones and zeros are transmitted by sending a 450.325MHz + 4.5kHz signal or a 450.325MHz - 4.5kHz signal.

The channels are broking into 25kHz bands.

Correct me if I am wrong, I need to design a PLL with at least a 9kHz passband.

I am using a LMx2346/2347 PLL from national semiconductor.

Following a text book I have been reading, I have written some code that will plot the transfer function of the PLL for me. To perform this correctly, I need to know what the Volts/Rad output of the phase detector is (the slop of the volts plotted per radians). All I can find with regards to the phase detector in the datasheet is that the charge pump will output 4mA max.

How do I determine the Volts/Rad output of the phase detector?


Regards, Darcy Randall, Perth, Western Australia


Post subject: Posted: Mon Feb 25, 2008 6:35 am

Site Admin

Joined: Mon Jun 27, 2005 2:02 pm
Posts: 373
Location: Germany
Hi Darcy,

The current from the charge pump is delivered to a the loop-filter which converts it to voltage. The current charges a capacitor which is the first component of the loop filter, as a result of the constant current flowing through the capacitor a voltage is generated. Then for the maximal current generated by the phase detector you will get the maximal voltage.

About the bandwidth of loop filter I guess you are right (As far as I understand) in order to transfer the full frequency deviation of 9KHz due to the transmission of '0' and '1'.


Post subject: Posted: Wed Feb 27, 2008 12:43 am


Joined: Tue Feb 27, 2007 6:16 am
Posts: 46

The text I am reading claims that for charge pump PLLs, the phase comparison frequency must be at least 10 times greater than the PLL bandwidth.

My PLL bandwidth is 9kHz and my phase comparison frequency if 25kHz(the channel size). I have already laid the board out. Is the above statment from the text an over simplification or can anyone see a way around this through design of the loop filter?

What other options do I have?

My crystal reference is 10MHz. VCO freq = 450.325MHz. I was hoping to use an R counter value of 400. A counter = 29, B counter = 562.

I am beginning to think that I am going to have to incorporate a second PLL so that I can achieve stability.

Thanks again

Regards, Darcy Randall, Perth, Western Australia


Post subject: Posted: Wed Feb 27, 2008 7:36 am


Joined: Fri Feb 17, 2006 12:07 pm
Posts: 218
Location: London UK
Hi Darcy
I think one missing item of info is the POCSAG signalling rate you are using. Are you using the bog standard 512bps, or the higher rates sometimes used?
An FSK discrimminator I have used very successfully employed a D type Flip Flop driven by a crystal clock so that below the clock rate produced Q=1 (say) and above clock rate produced Q=0, but it sounds like you are locked into a charge pump circuit. The factor of 10:1 is a rule of thumb based on assumptions that designers want to use the simplest loop filter. I believe you can reduce this if you use a more sophisticated loop filter with high skirt rate roll-off. However, I do not know how far you can push this. Your system would be nearer 3:1.


Post subject: Posted: Wed Feb 27, 2008 5:51 pm


Joined: Tue Feb 27, 2007 6:16 am
Posts: 46
512 bps


Regards, Darcy Randall, Perth, Western Australia


Post subject: Posted: Thu Feb 28, 2008 6:05 pm


Joined: Tue Feb 27, 2007 6:16 am
Posts: 46
Wait, Im confused.

If my N counter value = 32*562 + 29 = 18013, then one input of the phase detector will see a signal equal to (450.325*10^6+4.5*10^3)/18013 = 25000.250 Hz or for the transmission of a zero, a signal of (450.325*10^6-4.5*10^3)/18013 = 24999.750 Hz. Hence I assume the phase detector output will be a signal of +/- 0.25Hz and this is the bandwidth I should design the PLL to.

Alternatively because we are transmitting at 512bps, perhaps I should set my PLL bandwidth to 512Hz.

Could someone please correct my thinking.

FYI Baud rate = 512bps, R counter = 400, N counter =18013, Ref oscillator = 10MHz, TX freq = 450.325*10^6Hz +/- 4.5kHz, Using a charge pump PLL

Thankyou again

Regards, Darcy Randall, Perth, Western Australia


Peter Raynald
Post subject: Posted: Thu Mar 06, 2008 11:25 pm


Joined: Tue Sep 07, 2004 3:09 pm
Posts: 11
I think the PLL bandwidth in your case is limited by the baud rate.

I think you need to make sure that your loop bandwidth is larger than the baud rate by 4 or 5 times. 9KHz seems to me more than enough.

The question or the 10X rule of tumb... I think it comes from the fact that a PLL is a digital device, you want it to clock much faster than your filter BW for the gain equation to hold as it it would all be a nice analog system.

However with 25KHz comparison frequency you will have a nice spur sideband due to your charge pump leakage unless you have the most brutal filter.

I may not be a concern to you.


Post subject: Posted: Fri Mar 07, 2008 3:24 pm


Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2008 2:29 pm
Posts: 3
Analog Devices has a great tool available for download on their website. It is called SimPLL. You can chose different loop filter topologies and see the loop filter response. The tool also reports modulation bandwidth. The tool is limited to Analog Devices PLL chips. ADI has many chips, possibly you can find one with 4 mA output current. Even if not, you can get an idea of what the 25 kHz reference spurs will be like with a 9 kHz loop BW.

The 10:1 loop filter rule is just a rule of thumb. The problem is to get enough roll-off in the filter to suppress the reference spurs while passing the modulation, AND maintaining enough phase margin to ensure loop stability. You need to know what is the requirement for reference spur level.

Mike Rauh

Posted  11/12/2012
Custom Search
More than 10,000 searchable pages indexed.

Your RF Cafe
Progenitor & Webmaster

Click here to read about RF CafeKirt Blattenberger... single-handedly redefining what an engineering website should be.

View the YouTube RF Cafe Intro Video Carpe Diem!
(Seize the Day!)

5th MOB: My USAF radar shop

Airplanes and Rockets: My personal hobby website

Equine Kingdom: My daughter Sally's horse riding website