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Low pass filter Problem - Help Needed - RF Cafe Forums
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Digital
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Post subject: Low pass filter Problem - Help Needed
Posted: Thu May 20, 2010 4:24 am
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Joined: Thu May 20, 2010
4:20 am Posts: 11 |
I am trying to remove the 1st and 2nd harmonic from
a transmitter I have designed in the 433mhz band.
It puts out 17dbm.. The transmitter is all surface
mount based around the SX1230 chip. Ive built
2 low pass filters with SMA in and out connectors
and tested them with a spectrum analyzer with tracking
gen. Both perform well with less than 1 db of insertion
attenuation at 433mhz and around 25 db at 860mhz.
The problem is when I test them with my transmitter
there seems to be no visible reduction in the harmonics
when viewed with the spec ann. This makes
absolutely no sense to me infact it even sounds
ridiculous. Has anyone got any ideas of where
I'm going wrong.???
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IR |
Post subject: Re: Low pass filter Problem - Help Needed
Posted: Thu May 20, 2010 4:46 am
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Joined: Mon Jun 27, 2005
2:02 pm Posts: 373 Location: Germany
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Hello, Can you make a picture or a schematic
of your filters and post them here? Have
you built your filters on PCB or copper substrate?
This indeed sounds weird. However, I have
experienced a similar thing when I was a rookie,
I built a quadraplexer ( 4 different filters, 42
components in total) in the air (Not on PCB substrate),
and then once everything worked well and I implemented
the circuit on a PCB, I was surprised why the center
frequencies have been shifted. Please provide
more information, so we can help you out.
_________________ Best regards, -
IR
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Digital |
Post subject: Re: Low pass filter Problem - Help Needed
Posted: Thu May 20, 2010 5:26 am
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Joined: Thu May 20, 2010
4:20 am Posts: 11 |
Hi IR Here are some pics. Both filters
are on double sided board FR4. One filter
is discrete 3 coils 2 caps the other is a johanson
SMD LPF My first time for pics
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IR |
Post subject: Re: Low pass filter Problem - Help Needed
Posted: Thu May 20, 2010 6:01 am
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Joined: Mon Jun 27, 2005
2:02 pm Posts: 373 Location: Germany
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My first suggestions: 1. Could be a mismatch
problem between the transmitter output and the filters.
Have you checked the transmitter's output retrun
loss? 2. If I have seen correctly from your
picture, the first filter starts with a series coil
and there is no DC blocking capacitor. Maybe
there is a load (due to coupling) between the filter
and the power supply of the transmitter's PA, which
causes this erouneous behavior.
_________________ Best regards, -
IR
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Digital |
Post subject: Re: Low pass filter Problem - Help Needed
Posted: Thu May 20, 2010 6:22 am
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Joined: Thu May 20, 2010
4:20 am Posts: 11 |
Hi IR Firstly thankyou for your quick reply.
I suppose there could be a mismatch with the
TX. I've just assumed its at 50 ohms. How
can I measure the return loss of the TX??? Is it
the same way as you measure the return loss of a
antenna but looking back into the output of the
TX using a directional coupler. I'll check
the schematic as well to see if it DC blocked I
think it is. I've left work for the day so
ill have a good look tomorrow taking into account
your suggestions.
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IR |
Post subject: Re: Low pass filter Problem - Help Needed
Posted: Thu May 20, 2010 6:30 am
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Joined: Mon Jun 27, 2005
2:02 pm Posts: 373 Location: Germany
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Yes you can measure the TX output as you suggested.
Although after taking a look at the device's
data sheet, I think that the problem most certainly
lies in the absence of a DC blocking capacitor.
You can see in the data sheet that all the suggested
filter stages begin with a DC blocking capacitor.
So if you connect the filter directly without any
DC blocking capacitor, there is no isolation between
the DC path to the RF path.
_________________ Best regards, -
IR
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Digital |
Post subject: Re: Low pass filter Problem - Help Needed
Posted: Thu May 20, 2010 6:45 am
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Joined: Thu May 20, 2010
4:20 am Posts: 11 |
Hi IR Im not sure which data sheet your looking
im asuming the SX1230 So does every RFfilter
stage need its own series capacitor. Even if there
is one blocking dc near the PA.
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IR |
Post subject: Re: Low pass filter Problem - Help Needed
Posted: Thu May 20, 2010 7:30 am
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Joined: Mon Jun 27, 2005
2:02 pm Posts: 373 Location: Germany
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I took a look at the SX1230 data sheeet.
The first filter stage needs a DC block capacitor
for sure. For the second stage, it is optional,
although I would connect one.
_________________ Best regards, -
IR
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Digital |
Post subject: Re: Low pass filter Problem - Help Needed
Posted: Thu May 20, 2010 10:26 pm
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Joined: Thu May 20, 2010
4:20 am Posts: 11 |
Hi IR Here is picture showing the measured
return loss of the input of the transmitter as you
suggested. Ive never thought about doing
this before so not sure of the results or if ive
even set it up correctly. As you can see
the dip in the trace is at 530 Mhz. The bright dot
on the screen is the frequency counter position
set at my transmit freq for reference. Does
this mean the tuned circuits on the output of the
PA are off frequency. Should the dip be at
my TX Frequency of 434 Mhz for ultimate matching.
Regards
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IR |
Post subject: Re: Low pass filter Problem - Help Needed
Posted: Fri May 21, 2010 2:40 am
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Joined: Mon Jun 27, 2005
2:02 pm Posts: 373 Location: Germany
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Yes it should be like this if you are measuring
the return loss. Another thing you can measure
is the frrequency response of the transmitter by
using power meter. You should get +17dBm at 433MHz
and the output power should reduce as you decrease
the frequency. Have you also checkec the
values of the capacitors and inductors you are using?
_________________ Best regards, -
IR
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Digital |
Post subject: Re: Low pass filter Problem - Help Needed
Posted: Fri May 21, 2010 2:50 am
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Joined: Thu May 20, 2010
4:20 am Posts: 11 |
Hi IR
Quote:
Have you checked the values of the capacitors/coils
you used?
The values are as per the reference design.
I suppose i now need to tweak the values of each
component to move the dip to my TX frequency.
Ive got no idea where to start but i suppose
i could use RF sim and recreate the output circuit
and see component does what to the return loss.
Any suggestions??
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IR |
Post subject: Re: Low pass filter Problem - Help Needed
Posted: Fri May 21, 2010 2:54 am
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Joined: Mon Jun 27, 2005
2:02 pm Posts: 373 Location: Germany
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Have you also tried what I suggested yesterday:
To use a DC blocking capacitor (With the values
suggested in the reference design for this specific
output power and frequency)?
_________________ Best regards, -
IR
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Digital |
Post subject: Re: Low pass filter Problem - Help Needed
Posted: Fri May 21, 2010 4:59 am
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Joined: Thu May 20, 2010
4:20 am Posts: 11 |
Hi IR I haven't tried the blocking cap as
yet. I sort of got stuck with testing the return
loss of the transmitter and what implications that
has and how i would go about shifting the freq.
Can you please comment more on this??
I cant see how a blocking cap would work if
the DC is already blocked.. please note: " im no
expert RF engineer", unless it has to do with isolation
between RF stages. Ill try it on Monday when I'm
back at work.. What value would you recommend?
I was thinking around the 33pf. thanks for
your input regards
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IR |
Post subject: Re: Low pass filter Problem - Help Needed
Posted: Fri May 21, 2010 5:53 am
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Joined: Mon Jun 27, 2005
2:02 pm Posts: 373 Location: Germany
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Quote:
I cant see how a blocking cap would work if
the DC is already blocked.. please note: " im
no expert RF engineer", unless it has to do
with isolation between RF stages. Ill try it
on Monday when I'm back at work.. What value
would you recommend? I was thinking around
the 33pf.
The DC is not blocked. The PA gets its DC
supply internally. The DC dupply and the RF signal
exist on the same internal node which is the output
of the PA. When you do not have a DC blocking capacitor,
what will happen is that the filter stage will influence
on your PA supply directly, i.e. instead of only
having a choke for the supply only you will have
a filter network. You can see that for any
MMIC amplifier there are coil and DC blocking capacitor
connected for the reason I mentioned above: To isolate
the RF and the DC paths. 33pF should do the
work, a higher value like 47pF, 56pF can also be
used.
_________________ Best regards, -
IR
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Digital |
Post subject: Re: Low pass filter Problem - Help Needed
Posted: Fri May 21, 2010 6:14 am
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Joined: Thu May 20, 2010
4:20 am Posts: 11 |
Hi IR I'm confused. Here is a schematic
of the RF stage. There is 33pf series cap. This
is what i mean by its already DC blocked. I'm trying
to add an extra filter on at the end. Am
I still missing something here?
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IR |
Post subject: Re: Low pass filter Problem - Help Needed
Posted: Fri May 21, 2010 6:57 am
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Joined: Mon Jun 27, 2005
2:02 pm Posts: 373 Location: Germany
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The circuit that you showed in your last post is
OK, the blocking capacitor exist there.
I did not see this capacitor assembled in your filter
and this is why I was asking. But I assume
that this capacitor is assembled on your PCB. If
this is the case, then this is OK. Please
check that there is output of +17dBm at the transmitter's
output. Then connect the filters and check the same.
Then let's continue forward.
_________________ Best regards, -
IR
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Digital |
Post subject: Re: Low pass filter Problem - Help Needed
Posted: Sat May 22, 2010 4:59 am
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Joined: Thu May 20, 2010
4:20 am Posts: 11 |
Hi IR Popped into work today to gather some
more info. As you can see in the Spec Analyser
photos with input attenuation set at -20db on full
span; Main Carrier at 434Mhz is +18dbm
First harmonic is -36dbm The second Harmonic
is -34dbm In the first two photos the transmitter
is connected directly and the second set the filter
has been added. As you can see the filter has
little effect and yet when swept alone it shows
some 30+db of attenuation. There lie my problem..
Photos Tx Only Photos
including Filter
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IR |
Post subject: Re: Low pass filter Problem - Help Needed
Posted: Sat May 22, 2010 4:23 pm
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Joined: Mon Jun 27, 2005
2:02 pm Posts: 373 Location: Germany
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It looks really like the filter has no effect on
your transmitter's output. Since the first and
second harmonic are already attenuated by more than
50dB without using a filter. My explanation
is: The transmitter itself has good rejection of
the first and second harmonics. Therefore, you do
not see almost any impact by adding the filter.
Based on the pics you showed in the posts
above, your filters also attenuates around 50dB,
and this is why you see a negligible added value.
The filter is based on resonant (notch) and
a tolerance in components values contribute to an
offset in the notch frequency which causes insufficient
attenuation. If you want to achieve increased
harmonics attenuation, you need a higher order filter
and/or another filter topology.
_________________ Best regards, -
IR
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Digital |
Post subject: Re: Low pass filter Problem - Help Needed
Posted: Sun May 23, 2010 7:39 am
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Joined: Thu May 20, 2010
4:20 am Posts: 11 |
Hi IR Sound like you've given up. Well thank
you anyway for responding. You have a least
given me some ideas to pursue. I don't know
if I agree about needing a higher order filter and
what would that be anyway?? I've even tried the
two filters in series with no luck.. I'm
thinking it must have something to do with impedance
of the transmitters output. Ie The transmitters
mismatched output impedance is changing the filters
characteristics. I found the return loss
measurement of the transmitter interesting as the
dip is not on my transmit freq.. Do you think this
needs fixing? What's your thoughts about
the return loss measurement of the transmitter??
Regards
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karthik |
Post subject: Re: Low pass filter Problem - Help Needed
Posted: Sun May 23, 2010 10:32 pm
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Joined: Tue Apr 11, 2006
8:13 pm Posts: 34 |
Hello, Just out of curiosity. Did you try
putting an attenuator in place of the filter? Do
the amplitudes of the carrier and the 2 harmonics
reduce by an equal amount? Karthik
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Kirt Blattenberger
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Post subject: Re: Low pass filter Problem - Help Needed
Posted: Sun May 23, 2010 10:38 pm
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Joined: Sun Aug 03, 2003
2:02 pm Posts: 308 Location: Erie, PA
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Greetings Digital: IR has been giving some
great inputs. If you don't mind, I'll add a couple
comments. As you have noted already, the
output of your Tx board is well within the spec
sheet levels for 2nd and 3rd harmonics (1st harmonic
is the fundamental, 2nd harmonic is the 1st overtone),
so its is a pretty good bet that the output impedance
is close enough to 50 ohms, or likely the harmonics
would look much worse. Likewise, the filter is pretty
close to 50 ohms or it wouldn't look as good, either.
There can be phasing issues when cascading two filters
without any matching between them, but that might
not be what is at work here. What might be
happening is that the lack of improvement you are
seeing in the harmonic suppression is due to harmonics
being generated internally by the spectrum analyzer
itself because of input overload. The filter might
indeed be reducing the harmonics, only to have the
SA re-create them internally. I do not know the
maximum input power level for the TR4122B, but here
is a simple test to rule out the too-much-input-power
thing. Add a 20 dB filter to the SA input
with the filter attached to the Tx (Tx -> Filter
-> 20 dB Atten -> SA Input). See if the 2nd
and 3rd harmonics are reduced significantly more
than what you are measuring now (relative to the
reduced fundamental). If the SA input was in fact
being saturated, backing off by 20 dB should pull
it out enough to prevent internally generated harmonics
from dominating the output. If that doesn't
do it, I'll think some more about it
_________________ - Kirt Blattenberger
RF Cafe Progenitor & Webmaster
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Digital |
Post subject: Re: Low pass filter Problem - Help Needed
Posted: Mon May 24, 2010 2:25 am
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Joined: Thu May 20, 2010
4:20 am Posts: 11 |
Hi All Thankyou for jumping on board.. This
problem is sending me nutty as it makes no sense
at all but there has to be an answer. Ive
just retested the circuits with a 20db external
attenuator inserted as suggest by Kirt. Absolutely
no difference was seen except the fact that all
levels were now down by 20db. regards
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karthik |
Post subject: Re: Low pass filter Problem - Help Needed
Posted: Tue May 25, 2010 12:22 am
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Joined: Tue Apr 11, 2006
8:13 pm Posts: 34 |
Is there a ground issue (improper ground or a ground
loop) somewhere? This is really wierd...
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karthik |
Post subject: Re: Low pass filter Problem - Help Needed
Posted: Tue May 25, 2010 12:26 am
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Joined: Tue Apr 11, 2006
8:13 pm Posts: 34 |
Is the carrier going to be at a fixed frequency?
If so, if nothing else works, you might consider
adding a bandstop filter to try to reduce those
harmonics....
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Kirt Blattenberger
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Post subject: Re: Low pass filter Problem - Help Needed
Posted: Tue May 25, 2010 1:31 pm
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Joined: Sun Aug 03, 2003
2:02 pm Posts: 308 Location: Erie, PA
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Greetings Digital: Desparate times call for
desparate suggestions. Have you tried flexing
and twisting the filter board while watching the
display? Also try mashing it between your thumb
and fingers around the components. If there
is a cold or fractured solder joint or fractured
capacitor to ground that just happens to make contact
while testing the filter alone, but not with the
Tx attached, that would be a plausible source to
the problem. I've seen stranger phenomena.
_________________ - Kirt Blattenberger
RF Cafe Progenitor & Webmaster
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karthik
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Post subject: Re: Low pass filter Problem - Help Needed
Posted: Tue May 25, 2010 10:19 pm
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Joined: Tue Apr 11, 2006
8:13 pm Posts: 34 |
Can you reduce the output amplitude of the Tx? Does
the Tx have a builtin attenuator that you could
tweak? I'm wondering if you were saturating the
circuit or causing some sort of internal oscillation.
I could be way of center here, but I'm just throwing
out ideas
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Posted 11/12/2012
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